Posts by Band on the Run

40

Why do people look to the Bible for answers when it is obvious much OLDER works exist?

by sinis in

just finished up reading the sumerian texts posted on a site, as well as the vedic books.

it is interesting to note that "fables" or works of antiquity, written down, that are much older than the bible, ot included, paint a different picture.

why, and i still cannot wrap my mind around this, do people let the bible be the answer for everything, when it is quite obvious that there are works pre-dating the bible?.

Band on the Run

I studied Gnosticism with Elaine Pagels. My Oriental Civ. class exposed me to the Vedic works and Buddhism. It is simple for me. I am a product of my culture. Christ is the dominant figure in my culture. I freely acknowledge that if I were born in China or India or Arabia, Christ would be viewed as a worthy prophet but not God. I believe Christ is God, fully human and fully God. I grew up in NY and was exposed to many different beliefs. Outsiders always seemed to have more love than the Witnesses.

I've studied quite a bit for not doing graduate work in the field. Spirituality, how religion is applied in mundane life, is more important to me than any doctrinal dispute. As a lawyer I've exposed myself to much English history since our legal roots are there. People were executed for standing or sitting to receive communion. Does Christ truly care? I doubt it. There is always a larger geopolitical dispute brewing behind these religious claims.

Age is not an indication of wisdom. Something new could shed much light on the human condition. Once you know actual Hindus and Buddhists, it is impossible to believe Jesus will come again to destroy them and destroy them horribly. I not only know Muslims but black Muslims. My initial reaction was fear but it was soon replaced for admiration for their concern for their welfare, diet, and grace. Truth is the antidote to the "truth."

38

Who Was Your Favorite Speaker?

by minimus in

jw
friends

no brag, just fact---i was the most requested speaker in my hall(s), i was often requested to give talks in kh's all over the place, not just in my area.. i personally enjoyed speakers who taught you something, not merely recited something.

we had a district overseer, paul illingsworth, i loved his style.

he delved into bible words of the original greek and hebrew.

Band on the Run

I am older. Nathan Knorr's was a good speaker. I did not agree with what he said, even then. Ray Franz wasn't bad but the numerology could get tiresome. There were some not so famous Bethel speakers. I grew up next to an urban ghetto. We'd need to go to Yankee Stadium to hear someone literate and trained in public speaking. The local brothers were illiterate. Of course, the best speaker could have been a woman but we were silenced.

I adored it when they started putting on plays of Bible stories. It was so novel.

No one in the Witnesses could talk the way certain politicians do, such as Kennedy (john and Ted) or Obama. College, law school, and professional seminars placed me with good public speakers. The Anglican church I attended had a decent priest (NYC had amazing priests!) but the lay people also gave seminars. The lay people were just as good.

I was very much a captive audience with the Witnesses. The Witnesses don't tend to get the most gifted or brightest tacks. I'd love to hear someone not parroting Witness doctrine but stating their own views even if those views agreed with the Witnesses.

64

DEMONS

by Band on the Run in

jw
friends

growing up in the fifties and sixties, stories of demonic possession were prevalant in the watchtower and awake.

i was terrified.

we were told they would bother you if you were faithful, but also if you fell away.

Band on the Run

Humor sheds the best light on it. Friends laugh the way I related my fear of spooks. Here on this site, it is hard to be funny b/c I have this irrational fear. Some brainwashed things stay longer than others. An adult must bring a totally different mind set. Again, I don't believe the Governing Body believes in demons. No one ever described what demons look like. I don't even remember an illustration in the WT. They related something guaranteed to bring hysteria and panic. Are we supposed to Witness to them and count the time spent? What normal person inflincts this on young childlren? Many people in the world don't understand my utter contempt for the Witnesses. I do go a bit overboard. But they see nice looking, meek families worshipping God. I saw outright craziness. I heard about Jehovah's wrath and rarely of Jesus. The name of Jesus should scatter any horrid demons. My young life was full of fright -- blood transfusions, demons, Armageddon, Ministry School where I was always rebuked, remnant (my great grandfather was a remnant from Russell days. He was in heaven with the 143,999 and could see me take a bath. I did not like that), Abraham and Isaac, no flag salute even during the Cuban Missile Crisis, the list goes on.

Jehovah isn't God's name. It is YHWH without any vowels. Jews who practice will write G-d. The vowels are omitted to highlight the sacredness of the name. The Witnesses are correct about some things. The WT and Awake did address current events and history. It gave them a false authority in my mind. I always felt if I could just be better things would be perfect in my life. Never did I feel I would survive Armageddon. It is a stretch to call them Christian. They are Jehovahist. Since leaving, I've studied Christianity and other religions. There are beautiful truths in all these religions. I became part of a questioning questioning. My Anglican priests never gave me simple answers. I used to tease them. They said the church was a community of people asking the same questions together. Despite advanced formal study, the most authentic part of a Christian is how they treat other people.

64

DEMONS

by Band on the Run in

jw
friends

growing up in the fifties and sixties, stories of demonic possession were prevalant in the watchtower and awake.

i was terrified.

we were told they would bother you if you were faithful, but also if you fell away.

Band on the Run

Please, don't tease me and not let me have details. I don't believe they exist at all. Not that I want to test my view. If I heard voices or saw things that don't make sense, I'd immediately go to the nearest ER for a psych evaluation.

16

My first semester at college was a sucess!!

by noni1974 in

jw
friends

i got my grades today.

i ended up with a 3.57 gpa and i'm able to join phi beta kappa, which is the honnors society at my school.

not to bad for an ex jw that never graduated from high school.

Band on the Run

There are so many ways to branch out from a business degree. It is practical knowledge. If I were doing college again, I'd find a mix of fascinating and practical courses. My courses were sort of background courses to be a better citizen. I'm doing community college myself. I missed intro to pcs b/c of illness. The state is paying for my educ. rehab so I'm studying MS Office apps before looking for a legal job.

Law school was practical. Phi Beta - very, very impressive. I never achieved that. Good work! If you ever want help plotting career moves, private message me.

64

DEMONS

by Band on the Run in

jw
friends

growing up in the fifties and sixties, stories of demonic possession were prevalant in the watchtower and awake.

i was terrified.

we were told they would bother you if you were faithful, but also if you fell away.

Band on the Run

Growing up in the fifties and sixties, stories of demonic possession were prevalant in the Watchtower and Awake. I was terrified. We were told they would bother you if you were faithful, but also if you fell away. It seems as though we discussed demons more than we discussed Christ. I would check behind door hinges, the closet doors, and behind the shower curtain. Insomnia ensued. I recently found out from my younger sister that she, too, scanned the room to thwart demons. We could have shared our duties to get some sleep. Our overseer was English Polish. He played a tape made in England that was over the top and vivid involving a teapot being smashed.

Most of the Witness beliefs I could discard readily as I aged. Not so with demons. Years after no association I still fear them. I do not believe in them but I am terrified. When I took confirmation lessons, a priest recommended that I read The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis. It was so liberating! A great-uncle demon writes correspondence to his newphew, trainee-demon on how best to screw up humans. In the intro or preface, he states that focusing too much on the spirit world is not healthy. Ultimately, any fallen creatures were created by God. God/Satan duality is not scriptural. The Christian Satan has no choice but to lose. Why could we not be implored to turn to Jesus? Even w/o the Trinity, Jesus should put the fear of the Lord in any demon who messes with me.

I was also raised that psychotic people were demonized. Once my mom visited a sister in the county hospital who was psychotic. I was so furious with her for tainting me. Once the woman said she heard voices, I feared they would jump onto me. Who has actually seen a demon? Seriously? Seroquel will help where prayer does not.

Perhaps this was a side issue in the history of the Witnesses. I am curious as to the reasons for my fear. Rationally, the last straw for me was when the Society jazzed up its demon stories to include a demon materializing next to a woman in bed for sex purposes. It was so over the top, innocent, young me laughed. Demons and sex seem to be related. I'm wondering if this wanton sex is what scared me. Psychologists must have studied this. Countless hours of life were destroyed being vigilant against demons. It also strikes me that there was not a single adult to offer me guidance on this. Enough bad things exist in this world without borrowing from an imaginary spirit world.

25

Sebastian Ramos and his campaing in Brazil; how can they claim a right to shun you?

by dgp in

i suppose everyone on this board knows now about sebastian ramos and his campaign in brazil.

he has filed a claim agains religious discrimination, to the effect that shunning (not disfellowshipping or disassociation) is forbidden, on the grounds that it amounts to religious discrimination.. this is a very easy point to see for someone who is out.

it sort of extends the meaning of "religious discrimination", however, as it is usually understood.

Band on the Run

I wonder how much Jewish culture influenced early Christian practices? I can't fathom Jesus turning his back on anyone. He reached out --he actually had social relations -- with outcasts, such as tax collectors, Samaritans, adulterous woman. When I first started college in NY, I came with a '60s brotherhood outlook. I wanted to be friends with all. Part of my education was meeting Buddhists, Hindus, Shintoists, etc. To my shock, many of the conservative Jewish students merely tolerated me. They did not embrace me as a friend. Outsiders were irrelevant to their concerns. It is just an idea.

It also reminds me of John Lennon's campaign for peace. A journalist chided him, asking if singing "Give Peace a Chance" would work on Hitler. Gandhi acknowledged using British ideas of justice against the British. Germans would be a completely different story. I agreed with her as soon as I heard the question. John replied, not when he was an adult. What if HItler heard peace as a value from his birth? What if peace were the highest value? The Beatle made a lot of sense upon reflection.

What if questioning authority respectfully was taught us from birth? The WTBTS would have fewer adherents. The teabaggers and birthers would have fewer supporters. Ideally, the WTBTS should exist peacefully and go out of business b/c people ask for proof.

16

My first semester at college was a sucess!!

by noni1974 in

jw
friends

i got my grades today.

i ended up with a 3.57 gpa and i'm able to join phi beta kappa, which is the honnors society at my school.

not to bad for an ex jw that never graduated from high school.

Band on the Run

Congratulations. I was raised a JW. Getting good grades was the only way of pleasing him. So I racked them up. When I was sixteen, he decreed that I was too worldly (I could not dance if I wanted to do so b/c I was so afraid; my terror of boys was absolute). He knew college was my hope. His solution was to pull me out of high school so I could bag groceries under his supervision. No way was he going to deprive me college. I was so embarassed to speak to the principal. Outsiders would ooh and aah over my accomplishments. My problem was leaving my mom and siblings to go to a foster home. His actions were always tolerated at home. He was very abusive and came close to killing me on a few occasions. He died before he succeeded in making me leave school.

College was my answer to all this hurt. We were working-class. Ivy League schools accepted me with full scholarships. The transition for me was horrible. The pain was incredible. There is no magic answer to abuse. I did well academically. Since everyone else was applying to law school, I decided to do so. I was accepted at a top school on a full merit scholarship. Law school was a sheer delight b/c I had already acclimated.

I know my family made fun of college students. My classmates were rewarded with paid vacations. Education is so important to me. It is a gift from God to be cherished. It seems as though you certainly have the hang of it. You must be bright but also disciplined. College exposed me to academic Bible Study which I have continued throughout my life. Today I will manipulate info and realize what I am doing. It is such a wonderful after all those years of mind control. Some things I learned as a Witness helped me in my transition.

Knowledge is the antidote. College encouraged me to ask questions more than receive answers. "Hard" questions were highly sought. Questions are so much important than answers. When you arrive at my age, the answers change even outside the WTBTS.

People make extraordinary sacrifices to educate their children. I never felt worthy enough as a Witness. Niceness was so new. Consider advanced education.

19

Taking legal action against the JWs for DFing??? Need serious advice

by 2pink in

jw
friends

i posted a thread a bit earlier about our impending judicial committee/dfing for celebrating "false religious holidays".

they have seen decor on the outside of our house, so i guess that is their "evidence" that we engage in false religion now!

my husband and i have talked and are serious about taking legal action against the jws if they try to df us against our will.

Band on the Run

If your goal is to be treated as though nothing happened, a legal letter will probably inflame the situation seriously. It takes a lot of litigation to make someone a sophisticated users of legal services. A threat of legal action is waving a red flag/banner at a bull. They have the right to disfellowship. No American court is going to step in and regulate or monitor an internal religious matter. In fact, when the Establishment Clause is discussed, excessive entanglement in a religion is one of three criteria courts use to evaluate these claims. To put a judge as a fact-finder of religious doctrine is clearly forbidden.

I have no doubt that lawyers write such lawyers to generate a fee. Such a letter would never dissuade me if I were in their place. Law is not the ultimate path to justice. You know the personalities involved in your case. Is there some way to pressure from within the congregation? What about key rank and file members? Again, there is probably a way to limit their announcement of wrongdoing to only what is necessary to protect the congregation.

19

Fred Franz: Time in Which We Are Now Interested -- 1975 lecture

by cabasilas in

from internet archive:.

"time in which we are now interested," lecture given by frederick w. franz on february 5, 1975 at the los angeles sports arena in los angeles, california.

this was a special lecture given by fred franz (then vice president of the watchtower society and one of the main theologians of jehovah's witnesses at that time) on the 6,000 year chronology that pointed to the year 1975 as a special year marked in bible prophecy.

Band on the Run

We attended the Yankee Stadium convention. I mentioned in another post that he stated his calculations were influenced by the onset time for Eve's mentrual cycle. Menstruation was viewed as punishment for the Fall. I was about twelve or thirteen and very embarassed. My guts knew it was wacky. Gratefully, my parents never discussed it nor did the local brothers.

We were so painfully isolated as Witnesses, particularly during years of nationalism. Armageddon seemed more than possible with nuclear war expected by all. Yankee Stadium had the allure of the winning Yankees. I was so young and I still got a buzz of devotion. The local papers used to publish special convention editions, full of photos. I was in one such paper at the age of two. It was my view that these were the same papers the world was reading. I was so thrilled to make banner headlines in the New York Times or Daily News.

This site is nice b/c I have all these memories and, unlike the Beatles or the civil rights movement, there is no one I can share them with around.